Curse

pah01 · Jun 30, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I'm just reporting what I know and you don't, Mitch. Feel free to ask any one of your friends that was in a position to read about such discussions from over one year ago, and they should confirm it.

Dshot/Savage are extremely strong, and -- as Joe said -- if the game was balanced, they would likely need to be slightly toned down. In the end, rangers have always been a healthy template with an abusable primary attribute, a handful of very strong tools, and a big pile of trash skills.

@mitch you are showing yourself to be short sighted.

Joe

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 30, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Ranger interrupts are without a doubt powerful, but they arent very effective when not used in a skillful manner, interrupt spam will usually lead to pretty poor results and on top of that both skills require LoS and can be blocked.

Other than that if a skill was 'too' powerful a year ago that doesn't mean it is now, the metagame changes and stuff needs to be put into perspective.

Now if you would argue that Magebane Shot was overpowered, I totally agree.

DreamWind · Jul 01, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

Dshot/Savage are extremely strong, and -- as Joe said -- if the game was balanced, they would likely need to be slightly toned down. In the end, rangers have always been a healthy template with an abusable primary attribute, a handful of very strong tools, and a big pile of trash skills.

Meh...then you are basically arguing that the game has NEVER been balanced, because Dshot/Savage has existed in their current forms for quite a while. I don't agree because I think the game has had periods of relative balance (especially compared to today).

Besides, nerfing skills that require some semblance of skill and having overpowered crap that requires almost no skill is the problem with this game in todays era. In the old days there were powerful builds, but almost all of them were garbage if the player didn't know how to play it.

shoogi · Jul 01, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

How about changing all scythe attack skills so, the special effect will only apply to the target and any other foes struck by scythe aoe will suffer normal attack damage only?
This also makes sense, because Dagger attack skills can't gain double strikes, so why should scythe attacks get aoe effect.

Turbobusa · Jul 01, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I wouldn't mind that but it does not fix the loldamage skills you can spam as you will

Lordhelmos · Jul 01, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I don't think that Magebane Shot on it's own is overpowered or any single ranger interrupt in general. The problem with the overall situation is that there isn't enough penalty for a ranger to whiff interrupts in comparison to a mesmer. Expertise and quick recharges make ranger interrupts powerful because its the combination of having multiple interrupts on a bar, the fact that they cost nothing, and with 2-3 on your bar, if you miss one you are bound to have one or 2 already recharged. On top of that you are doing DPS with your bow and spreading conditions.

No single aspect of the ranger is overpowered, the fact of the matter is that they multi-task and cover so many roles far more effectively than any other class in the game. It's difficult to pinpoint overpowered aspects of a ranger and go "that's broken" because rangers as a whole are not singularly overpowered in one aspect but just overall, way too good in too many areas at the same time.

Bringing one ranger slots the party with a class that can fulfill the role of 2-3 other classes with a superior level of effectiveness. Rangers outclass so many different professions along so many different lines of duty its not even funny. This is namely seen in places like 4v4 arenas where R/P teams and in HA where the R/D frontline still hold up extremely solid against various kinds of team builds.

I think without a doubt one of the more generally broken aspects of the ranger class is expertise. I would go as far to say that Anet should have nerfed Expertise to only apply to only ranger skills a long time ago. However, now that there are so many cross class combinations available to rangers because expertise is so good, you can't really touch expertise without completely re-designing the metagame.

I think that rangers should be penalized under an aspect of expertise in the use of cross class skills. The rate at which rangers overlap the duties of other classes because of expertise is an imbalance in the game. Expertise should probably be changed to reduce the effectiveness of cross class skills.

Example:

"For each rank of Expertise, the Energy cost of all of your attacks, Rituals, touch skills, by 4% for ranger skills and 2% for cross class skills. Several skills, especially those related to Energy costs and skill recharge times, become more effective with higher Expertise."

In the metagame, a large majority of popular "scrub" builds like R/D Escape Scythe, Magebane Rangers, Touch Rangers, R/P Packhunters, Thumpers have had their ways paved by the rate at which expertise could be abused. Hitting expertise in such a manner would go a long way into filtering alot of trash out of the meta.

Granted I think rangers are good, but probably too effective in energy conservation through their primary attribute when compared to other classes. More penalties need to be imposed on mindless skill spamming rangers to promote player skill over mashing.

When compared to other primary attributes, the power of expertise is pretty sickening. You have alot of great utility skills in there, block stances, dshot, elites like Glass Arrows, Escape, etc.

Rangers should be more of a skill driven class, but expertise pretty much completely removes the one balancing aspect of any class in Guild Wars; which is due punishment for making stupid mistakes.

With Expertise rangers are allowed to make a huge amount of errors as far as whiffing interrupts, overextending with block stances, and spamming skills while disregarding energy -all because Expertise covers their ass regardless of how many times they screw up.

Granted, hitting Expertise in relation to cross class skills won't do anything vs. interrupt rangers, but if R/D escape scythe, touchers, thumpers, pack hunters, etc. were hit, at least the ranger's role would be further defined.

It's fine for a class to excel at something, but no single class should excel at as many things as current metagame ranger.

Anyway with that said here's a list of skill changes I would probably advocate for:

Expertise (PvP and PvE):

"For each rank of Expertise, the Energy cost of all of your attacks, Rituals, touch skills, by 4% for ranger skills and 2% for cross class skills. Several skills, especially those related to Energy costs and skill recharge times, become more effective with higher Expertise."

Savage Shot (PvP): Increase Recharge to 8 seconds (granted every ranger has dshot and savage, both of which are powerful in combination with each other because of their quick recharges, increasing the down time on savage would probably be a decent hit to interrupt spam while still maintaining the effectiveness of the skill.)

Wounding Strike (PvP): Increase recharge to 5 seconds. (this skill is broken stupid but necessary, a slap on the wrist is fine.)

Barbs (PvP): Increase recharge to 10 seconds. (Hitting Sway, barbs is a massive damage factor for that build.)

Natures Renewal (PvE and PvP): Creates a level 1...8 spirit (30...126 second lifespan). For creatures in range, enchantments and Hexes take 50-80% as long to cast and it takes twice as much Energy to maintain enchantments. Does not affect spirits. (Linking the hex and enchantment effect of NR to scale with Wilderness Survival would also be good to hit Sway and also force rangers into harder attribute splits to max the effect of this spirit.)

Dancing Daggers (PvP): reduce damage per dagger to 5-23 dmg. (way too much damage for a spammable lead attack that recharges in 5 seconds and doesn't require melee range. Every class abuses deadly arts because the DD+Asp+Iron Palam+Tox Shock combo is so stupid easy and throws out massive damage at caster range.)

Blessed Light (PvE and PvP): reduce cost to 5, change functionality to: Heal target ally for 10...114 Health and remove one condition and one hex. You lose 5 energy if any conditions or hexes were removed in this way. (A good change to Blessed Light to make it a viable solution for monk multi-tasking in the metagame. Reducing the energy cost and making the hex/condition removal a conditional charge will allow Blight to double as a hard heal, hex, and condition removal effectively without overpowering it.)

Withdraw Hexes: (PvE and PvP): Change functionality to: Heals all party members for 15-40 health and removes 1 hex from each party member in earshot. Party members who lose a hex in this manner are also healed for an additional 15-40 health. Increase casting time to 2 seconds and recharge to 12. Move into Protection Prayers. (Why not change this still into a party wide hex support skill that can also double as a party heal? Moving it into prot would also allow secondaries to use it, such as ritualists or eles.)

Spears (PvE and PvP): Change the attack interval from spears from 1.5 seconds to 1.66. (Spear DPS is rediculous, as we all know.)

Double Dragon (PvE and PvP): Change functionality to: All adjacent foes are struck for 7-91 fire damage and hexed with double dragon for 2 seconds. When double dragon ends all foes adjacent to the hexed target are struck for 7-91 fire damage. (Changed the skill to a chained AoE for an interesting effect, the skill does not hit the same target twice, since hexed foes are not struck again, only those next to them.)

Lyssa's Aura (PvE and PvP): Change functionality to: Elite Enchantment Spell. For 3...9 seconds, whenever target ally becomes the target of an enemy spell, that ally steals up to 1...6 Energy from the caster. Increase recharge to 20.

Tease (PvE and PvP): Change functionality to: Hex Spell. For 3...9 seconds, target touched foe cannot be affected by more than one enchantment at a time.

Xinrae's Weapon (PvE and PvP): Reduce cost to 15.

Peace and Harmony (PvE and PvP): Change functionality to: For 30...78 seconds, target ally gains +1 energy regeneration, +2 energy regeneration under 50% health, and +3 energy regeneration under 25% health. Peace and Harmony ends if that ally casts a spell that targets a foe or deals damage to a foe.

Healing Light (PvP and PvE): Reduce recharge to 3, Reduce cast time to 3/4 a second.

Farin · Jul 01, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Rangers are the last character you should be trying to fix right now.

DreamWind · Jul 01, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farin

Rangers are the last character you should be trying to fix right now.

Thank you. These ranger arguments are a waste of time. The game has far bigger problems that make people not even want to log on. Rangers have always been something I liked about the game (going back to Prophecies). Most players fail at ranger unless they have a good amount of practice/skill with it, and that is something that shouldn't be touched at least until the larger problems are dealt with.

Lordhelmos · Jul 01, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaraxle

I'm just reporting what I know and you don't, Mitch. Feel free to ask any one of your friends that was in a position to read about such discussions from over one year ago, and they should confirm it.

Dshot/Savage are extremely strong, and -- as Joe said -- if the game was balanced, they would likely need to be slightly toned down. In the end, rangers have always been a healthy template with an abusable primary attribute, a handful of very strong tools, and a big pile of trash skills.

^ again what he said.

DreamWind · Jul 01, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

^ again what he said.

You miss the point. There are MUCH MUCH larger problems than something that has been around for years with not nearly as many complaints. Priority is good.

DarkNecrid · Jul 01, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You miss the point. There are MUCH MUCH larger problems than something that has been around for years with not nearly as many complaints. Priority is good.

And besides, the dart board isn't going to hit anything you mentioned anyways.

He's gonna hit the Flare/Mending meta next patch.

DreamWind · Jul 01, 2008, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

like any of those problems are going to get fixed anyway. May as well entertain ourselves by discussing rangers.

Yea good point I guess. In reality that is all these monthly balance threads are for anyways...entertainment. Anet hasn't listened to them for the past 3 years.

Riotgear · Jul 01, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

[i]"For each rank of Expertise, the Energy cost of all of your attacks, Rituals, touch skills, by 4% for ranger skills and 2% for cross class skills.

I'd actually rather see it just be 2% and reduce the insane costs of Ranger skills.

Monk Gsb · Jul 01, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

back to eat your grandmoms juices.

EAT, JUICES, dont you mean drink her juices?

l2troll

erk · Jul 02, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

...
Blessed Light (PvE and PvP): reduce cost to 5, change functionality to: Heal target ally for 10...114 Health and remove one condition and one hex. You lose 5 energy if any conditions or hexes were removed in this way. (A good change to Blessed Light to make it a viable solution for monk multi-tasking in the metagame. Reducing the energy cost and making the hex/condition removal a conditional charge will allow Blight to double as a hard heal, hex, and condition removal effectively without overpowering it.)

BL offers good bar compression, but it's expensive to run as a main heal. An alternative might be that some energy is returned like ZB if health is below 50% perhaps only 5 returned not 7. Another approach could be to make it 5e but have the condition/hex removal kick in only if target is below 50%, that would put a bit of skill back into it's usage.

Quote:

Spears (PvE and PvP): Change the attack interval from spears from 1.5 seconds to 1.66. (Spear DPS is rediculous, as we all know.)

Check your dps figures, hammers and scythes both do more. As a rule in GW the slower the weapon the more dps it does, with the exception of bows that are all over the place.

DarkNecrid · Jul 02, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

BL offers good bar compression, but it's expensive to run as a main heal. An alternative might be that some energy is returned like ZB if health is below 50% perhaps only 5 returned not 7. Another approach could be to make it 5e but have the condition/hex removal kick in only if target is below 50%, that would put a bit of skill back into it's usage.

still wouldn't get taken cause WoH is better.

Quote:

Check your dps figures, hammers and scythes both do more.

I would sure hope so since they are close range, but spears still do sword damage dps at long range. This is bad.

Hyper Cutter · Jul 02, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Check your dps figures, hammers and scythes both do more. As a rule in GW the slower the weapon the more dps it does, with the exception of bows that are all over the place.

Not to mention that spears actually have more counters than melee weapons (since they can be kited, "stray", and are obstructed pretty much at random)

erk · Jul 02, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I would sure hope so since they are close range, but spears still do sword damage dps at long range. This is bad.

Range = Dodge/Hide. If they were overpowered we would be seeing 3 * Spear spikers in HA not 3* bow spikers. There isn't the spear skills to support spikes like there are bow skills, all the good ones need you to build up too much adrenaline, when you factor in dodge and blocks it takes forever compared to training a target in melee. That's why the Paragon is the least played offensive class nowadays in GvG/HA/TA except for some of it's blockway/utility stuff. The R/P beastmaster is popular, but pretty much only in RA because the spear lets you get away with not having a running skill when half your bar is taken up with pet skills, the trade off is you get no knockdown or deep wound but you can pressure two targets at once at about 20dps. each.

I would love to see more spear teams in HA, but they seem to have died right off. Perhaps a slight buff to some spear skills might help bring them back.

Lordhelmos · Jul 02, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Range = Dodge/Hide. If they were overpowered we would be seeing 3 * Spear spikers in HA not 3* bow spikers. There isn't the spear skills to support spikes like there are bow skills, all the good ones need you to build up too much adrenaline, when you factor in dodge and blocks it takes forever compared to training a target in melee. That's why the Paragon is the least played offensive class nowadays in GvG/HA/TA except for some of it's blockway/utility stuff. The R/P beastmaster is popular, but pretty much only in RA because the spear lets you get away with not having a running skill when half your bar is taken up with pet skills, the trade off is you get no knockdown or deep wound but you can pressure two targets at once at about 20dps. each.

I would love to see more spear teams in HA, but they seem to have died right off. Perhaps a slight buff to some spear skills might help bring them back.

What are you talking about? Paragons the least offensive class in GvG? No spear spiking skills *cough* spear of lightning, vicious attack, cruel spear, *cough* No deep wound?

Check my figures, the slower the weapon the harder it hits? Base damage for a Scythe is 9-41 and a hammer runs at 19-35. They don't hit hard because they're slow, they hit hard because they have a big number on the end of their damage spectrum and crit like a mac-truck. I think your the one that needs to check your figures on IAS and base damage. Any experienced GvGer is going to tell you that spear pressure isn't something to laugh at.

I'll say, in the nicest way possible, that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Don't try to correct someone unless you have your facts straight.

~ Anyway moving along now....

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You miss the point. There are MUCH MUCH larger problems than something that has been around for years with not nearly as many complaints. Priority is good.

Yeah I'll agree with that to an extent, since the debate was centered on rangers, I just dropped my 2cents on the issue. It doesn't mean that its at the top of what I think should be on the priority list.

If you asked me what really needed help I'd probably say look at all the poor rits that got shafted after A-rage and splinter got canned in the last update. They pretty much got das boot out of the metagame. So yeah maybe an entire class being completely useless in the PvP meta, might be a little bit important. It just sucks that one of the main issues with that problem is that ritualists are bad by design in the first place.

On top of that the paragon class is like everything the rit wanted to be and more. Rits are completely overshadowed by a superior party support class that can provide strong ranged dps, condition pressure, party healing+defense, and midline with 80 armor while still being able to keep the team mobile; unlike ritualists, who suffer from clunky spirit mechanics. Rits really don't have a niche in the system -aside from a select few weapon spells that are maybe half decent at best and a channeling line that's pretty much air magic lite (minus the blind, gale, and various other things that make air magic rock).

Or if you want to look at it in a larger spectrum, you can talk about how much hero battles and halls fail. (But we all know discussing the fail of HA and HB is like talking about gravity...)

So here we go, since people want to take the ranger debate and shove it into the incinerator, here's the new topic:

Ritualists sucking in PvP. Go!

erk · Jul 02, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

What are you talking about? Paragons the least offensive class in GvG? No spear spiking skills *cough* spear of lightning, vicious attack, cruel spear, *cough* No deep wound?

Quote me properly I said the least played offensive class. They are unpopular compared to Warriors, Rangers, Dervish, etc. and don't think for a moment I was just thinking of just GvG. And again an out of context quote on deep wound, the paragraph was referring to the common R/P bar that either has Enraged Lunge, RaO, or HaO usually with Bleeding or Blazing not Vicious as it swipes too much energy that's needed for the pet attacks.

On the subject of spear spikes, get 3 friends together with Paragons and see if you can beat the popular 3 Ranger R-spike damage. See if you can kill the Master of damage in 1 sec. Good luck.